Ceph User Committee meeting 2014-05-02 » History » Version 2
Jessica Mack, 05/25/2015 11:14 PM
1 | 1 | Jessica Mack | h1. Ceph User Committee meeting 2014-05-02 |
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2 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
3 | 1 | Jessica Mack | h3. Executive summary |
4 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
5 | 1 | Jessica Mack | The agenda was: |
6 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * Elections |
7 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * RedHat and Inktank |
8 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * CephFS |
9 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * Meetings |
10 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
11 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Action: The Ceph User Committee will express the need for a Ceph Foundation, from the user perspective |
12 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Action: Patrick McGarry will organize a RedHat acquisition meeting in two weeks time |
13 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
14 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Note: Patrick McGarry participated in the meeting and answered questions, as can be read from the logs below. The executive summary focuses on the points raised by users instead of attempting to summarize the dialog. |
15 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
16 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
17 | 1 | Jessica Mack | h3. Elections |
18 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
19 | 1 | Jessica Mack | It will happen this month, details here : https://wiki.ceph.com/Community/2014-04_Ceph_User_Committee_Elections |
20 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
21 | 1 | Jessica Mack | h3. RedHat and Inktank |
22 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
23 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Positive: stewardship of other projects seem fine. |
24 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: support for non RHEL OS |
25 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Positive: better support for Fedora |
26 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: the project is sold to RedHat, engineers and trademark, the people who were in charge now answer to someone else |
27 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Hope: inifiniband support boost from RedHat |
28 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Positive: RedHat has experience with maintaining software production ready and supporting customers |
29 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: what does it mean from the point of view of Inktank customers |
30 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Positive: greater potential for development gains between ceph and kvm |
31 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: the [[Foundation|Ceph foundation]] becomes more necessary than ever, to establish a diverse governance, will RedHat agree to it ? |
32 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: Sage had the skills and was empowered to be the Ceph benevolent dictator for life. The skill remains but he has less power over the project. |
33 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Clarification: Inktank acquisition by RedHat should not be confused with MySQL acquisition by Oracle. The copyright is intentionaly fragmented and cannot be sold. |
34 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Feedback: Cloudwatt management reacted positively to the acquisition. |
35 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Positive: Calamari will be published under a Free Software license |
36 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Confusion: what does it mean for GlusterFS, really ? Features ? Sale points ? Development roadmap ? What Inktank products / services, training will remain ? etc. |
37 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: can Ceph, as a software, be reasonably independant from the service provider side of Inktank / RedHat ? |
38 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: who coordinates the development, roadmap, feature list ? The Ceph Foundation or RedHat ? |
39 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: users must apply pressure for the Ceph Foundation to happen, RedHat has little incentive to agree to it spontaneously. |
40 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Action: we, users, should express our desire for a Ceph Foundation, with testimonials collected from various people |
41 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: should things go bad and a fork becomes necessary, all the driving forces of the project are currently under Inktank / RedHat influence |
42 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Comparison: Qumranet acquisition is perceived to have been beneficial to KVM |
43 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Concern: some Gluster, Inc customers were unsatisfied after the RedHat acquisition, could it happen to Inktank customers also ? |
44 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Action: Patrick McGarry will organize a RedHat acquisition meeting in two weeks time |
45 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
46 | 1 | Jessica Mack | h3. CephFS |
47 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
48 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Use case: project to replace a 40TB cluster used to host mirrors for distributions (binary data packages, iso, tarballs), delivering more than 1Gb/s and less than 4Gb/s |
49 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * http://dmsimard.com/wp-content/uploa...or_logical.jpg |
50 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * suggestions to use object instead of CephFS, with adhoc software |
51 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * if these "webservers" were openvz containers, having its datastore on cephfs |
52 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * if front servers were openvz containers, they could be HA-managed |
53 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * the only blocking factor is CephFS not being production ready: mostly the active-active MDS scenario and the dynamic subtree partioning that was unstable |
54 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * the plan is to deploy with puppet |
55 | 1 | Jessica Mack | * deduplication would help |
56 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
57 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Use case: OVH.com does something with Ceph (CephFS ?) : https://twitter.com/olesovhcom/statu...82909729763328 |
58 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
59 | 1 | Jessica Mack | Use case: French academic community meeting discussed how CephFS could be used (no record) http://www.capitoul.org/ProgrammeReunion20140424 |
60 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
61 | 1 | Jessica Mack | h3. Meetups |
62 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
63 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
64 | 1 | Jessica Mack | All meetups https://wiki.ceph.com/Community/Meetups |
65 | 1 | Jessica Mack | May 13th, Atlanta : http://openstacksummitmay2014atlanta...e#.U2PrHuZdW6w |
66 | 1 | Jessica Mack | May 11th, Atlanta : http://www.meetup.com/Ceph-in-Atlanta/ |
67 | 1 | Jessica Mack | May 9th, Berlin : http://www.meetup.com/Ceph-Berlin/events/179186672/ |
68 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
69 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
70 | 1 | Jessica Mack | h3. Log |
71 | 1 | Jessica Mack | |
72 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <pre> |
73 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Welcome to the Ceph User Committee meeting #2 ! https://wiki.ceph.com/Community/Meetings#Proposed_topics: |
74 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> scuttlemonkey: will join a little late |
75 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> Hi :) |
76 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> ooh #2! |
77 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> ahah |
78 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> do we have to wear red-colored hats? |
79 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> ;) |
80 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> I propose we get the easy stuff / boring things out of the way first and give a chance to the people who are late to join |
81 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> janos_: not yet I hope |
82 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> lol |
83 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> I'm here! :) |
84 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> First topic : the elections |
85 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> as promised I'll send a mail later today to setup the elections of the Ceph User Committee head |
86 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> it will be interesting in the new context ;-) |
87 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> I will apply and mourgaya proposed to apply too |
88 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> is there anyone else interested ? |
89 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- janos_ keeps his hand down |
90 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> the idea is that you spend ~8 hours a week on average caring for the ceph user committee. It's not much but still ;-) |
91 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mourgaya: are you still on board for this ? |
92 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> yes! |
93 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> cool |
94 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> now to more fun things |
95 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> redhat and inktank, what do people think ? |
96 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- loicd tend to be a kill joy and won't speak first ;-) |
97 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> i think it's good. RH's stewardship of other projects seems to have been good |
98 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> not overbearing |
99 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <lesserevil> re: inktank->redhat: optimistically cautious |
100 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Serbitar> my conern as others have raised is the ability to get support for non rhel OS |
101 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> plus i think now i'll get the f20 builds i've been dreaming of |
102 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> ;) |
103 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <kevincox> I think that it will be good for the project. |
104 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> yeah i can understand the support concerns for other distro's |
105 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> I know I'm inside the beast, but I think it's a good move. However, it may be a bit of a paradigm shift in |
106 | 1 | Jessica Mack | long-term planning for things like foundation |
107 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Serbitar: do we know how much time redhat actually invests in supporting kvm for other os (for instance) ? |
108 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> a bit surprising. during the Frankfurt Ceph Day, the general statement from Inktank and Ceph was "we won't sell out". |
109 | 1 | Jessica Mack | at least it sounded like it |
110 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <pressureman> i hope that infiniband support will get a boost from redhat |
111 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Serbitar> loicd: i do not |
112 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> fwiw I know sage is working very hard to ensure that support for non-rhel setups is strong |
113 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: it can be percieved as a sell out indeed. |
114 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> ceph can have the benefits of redhat landing production! |
115 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> and for now inktank is still selling and supporting ubuntu/suse |
116 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> I'm a bit concerned about the transistion peroid, also from a commercial support view |
117 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: how do you mean ? |
118 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> scuttlemonkey: "for now" isn't really something a business can rely on when it comes to setting up petabyte storage |
119 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> Vacum: I absolutely agree |
120 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> it's just hard to answer definitively as the "how do all the bits and pieces get merged" discussions are still |
121 | 2 | Jessica Mack | ongoing |
122 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> all I can give you is intent |
123 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> scuttlemonkey: this is reassuring and there does not seem to be a risk that other platforms support is dropped any time soon. |
124 | 1 | Jessica Mack | I think people express a concern in the long term. |
125 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> i'm excited about the greater potential for development gains between ceph and kvm |
126 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> janos_: I did not think about that, you're correct ! |
127 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> loicd: we have a 12 month pre-production support that will run another 8 months. and we were planning on contracting the |
128 | 1 | Jessica Mack | enterprise support. now its totally open if such a thing will be available in the (near) future - and to which conditions |
129 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> vacum: you're ubuntu I'm assuming? |
130 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> scuttlemonkey: debian |
131 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> ahh |
132 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: could you spell the name of your company for the record ? Unless it's confidential of course ;-) |
133 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> loicd: I can spell it per PM :) |
134 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> now that redhat is there, the foundation becomes more necessary than ever |
135 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> I do see a plus on the whole thing from a commercial perspective though. RH does have a long history in providing enterprise |
136 | 1 | Jessica Mack | support and they know it all. inktank can benefit from that |
137 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> in the past, as a user, I felt confident that Sage could be a benevolent dictator in the broad sense of the term, not just |
138 | 1 | Jessica Mack | technical. Now that redhat is involved, there needs to be a diverse governance of some kind. |
139 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> is redhat keeping the inktank support team, and there reactivity? |
140 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: +1 |
141 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> loicd: that's my take as well, but there is mixed opinion from the folks involved....so I'm looking forward to the |
142 | 2 | Jessica Mack | discussions |
143 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <amichel> Question about the repositories for ubuntu/debian. I'm doing a deploy on 14.04 trusty and the ceph-extras repo doesn't |
144 | 2 | Jessica Mack | seem to have trusty packages. Is ceph-extras not needed on 14.04 or is there a trick I'm missing? |
145 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> loicd: I totally agree. "Ceph" as a brand (and I didn't use trademark on purpose!) should not fall into the hand of a company |
146 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> mourgaya: Inktank is remaining intact as an org until we can ensure that the transition wont change support response |
147 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mourgaya: we don't know. But as a group of users I think we should see the broader consequences. In a few years from now, if all |
148 | 2 | Jessica Mack | goes well, ceph will be some kind of kvm. Widely spread and adopted. Is this what we would like ? Would our use cases be satisfied by |
149 | 2 | Jessica Mack | such an outcome ? |
150 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> amichel: we're having a meeting (ceph user committee). Do you mind if we postpone the answer for another 45 minutes ? |
151 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <amichel> No problem at all, I didn't realize |
152 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> from a brand (and even trademark) perspective, look at MySQL. They sold to Sun, which was kind of cool. and now its at Oracle... |
153 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <nobody18188181> Vacum: But now MariaDB is taking over ;) |
154 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dmsimard: what does iweb think of this move ? |
155 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: MySQL copyright was sold to oracle. That cannot happen with Ceph. |
156 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> nobody18188181: yes, Maria brings a lot of new stuff (no wonder, coming from Monty). but just look at the channel's activities... |
157 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> loicd: the trademark was sold too |
158 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> the copyright is intentionaly fragmented |
159 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> good! |
160 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <nobody18188181> What do they do in their channel? |
161 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> I can speak for myself, not quite on behalf of iWeb as is - I'm happy for Inktank and that Calamari will be open sourced. |
162 | 1 | Jessica Mack | I am really curious as to what will happen with Gluster since, to me, Ceph is a natural competitor to gluster. |
163 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> it was a wise decision. |
164 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> i don't imagine much will happen to gluster |
165 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dmsimard: +1 |
166 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> nobody18188181: I mean IRC channels. compare the activity of both |
167 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> RH will likely be happy selling support for both |
168 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> radhat is now the leader of the futur of storage :-) |
169 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <nobody18188181> Ah, I havent been to the maria or mysql channels so I cant speak on them |
170 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> I am not super familiar with Gluster but does it do things that Ceph does not do ? |
171 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> That's kind of where I am getting at |
172 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> My company ( Cloudwatt ) has reacted positively to the announcement. |
173 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> The marketing director came to me and showed the planned cooperation with RedHat. He said : "we'll add a Ceph line there". |
174 | 2 | Jessica Mack | And that was it. |
175 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <Serbitar> dmsimard: i guess it would be that cepgh has more functionality than gluster, with block object and file stores vs glusters' |
176 | 2 | Jessica Mack | file store |
177 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Serbitar> evne though csphfs isnt commercially supported yet |
178 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Is anyone around here actually using gluster ? |
179 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> So from a Redhat perspective, do you continue to develop both ? Do you focus your efforts on Ceph ? This is what I am curious |
180 | 2 | Jessica Mack | to see how it plays out. |
181 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <nobody18188181> loicd: Per recommendation of a friend I'm trying to use ceph (gluster was going to be my first choice); but if i cant get |
182 | 2 | Jessica Mack | ceph working then I'm going to have to try that. |
183 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> I'm a bit on the cautious side. On the RH announcement they are talking a lot about Inktank's "products". Do they mean the services |
184 | 2 | Jessica Mack | with that. Or Ceph itself? |
185 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> nobody18188181: I see |
186 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <nobody18188181> loicd: I chose ceph because a good friend of mine indicated to me that ceph is vastly superior in performance compared to |
187 | 2 | Jessica Mack | gluster; so of course that part wins me over. |
188 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> Vacum: the Inktank "product" is "Inktank Ceph Enterprise"...which is Calamari + Support/Services...there is also |
189 | 2 | Jessica Mack | training/consulting |
190 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> We can only speculate and hope for the best. In terms of timeframe, I bet we'll know where we stand in a year or so. |
191 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> also, during Frankfurt Ceph Day, Sage talked about keeping Ceph as the product/solution and Inktank as service provider seperate. |
192 | 2 | Jessica Mack | Is that even possible with RH? |
193 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: with a foundation it is. |
194 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <lesserevil> loicd: +1 |
195 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> loicd: But then, who is the "coordinator" of Ceph's development? The Foundation, or RH? |
196 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <mo-> as somebody that's been trying to tell people that Ceph is worth a look (or two), I find it a BIG plus to be able to add that it is a |
197 | 2 | Jessica Mack | RH supported solution now |
198 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> Who, authoritively, will decide what goes in as a feature and what not? |
199 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Will RedHat agree to a foundation holding the trademark, I would not be on it. But that depends on us (users) and the developers |
200 | 2 | Jessica Mack | from the community. |
201 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> mo- good point when you have to make that pitch |
202 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> Vacum: the idea would be foundation as a central clearinghouse for development...but each contributing org would have their |
203 | 2 | Jessica Mack | own plans/roadmap (including RH) |
204 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> if such a foundation were to occur, Sage would still be BDFL and decide what goes in, and how |
205 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> so the "upstream" of everything would be The Foundation |
206 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> yeah |
207 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> that would be nice |
208 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> that's my hope |
209 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> mine too :) |
210 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <nobody18188181> ok i found a bug how can i report it quickly? |
211 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> all depends on how RH sees the future |
212 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: sage must be the benevolent dictator for life. At least I believe it's necessary because of the Ceph dymanic. A personal |
213 | 2 | Jessica Mack | opinion based on observation and betting that what happened in the past will work in the future ;-) |
214 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> If I was RedHat I would not allow the creation of a foundation. Unless there is significant pressure from the community. |
215 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> exactly |
216 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> yeah |
217 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> and to be fair there are a number of great single-vendor FOSS projects |
218 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> I propose that we voice, loud and clear, what we would like to see in a foundation. And why we think it is necessary. |
219 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> so it'll be an interesting discussion at least :) |
220 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> scuttlemonkey: right :-) |
221 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> please do |
222 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> +1 |
223 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> I have spent several months thinking about a foundation |
224 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <xarses> should we create a petition? |
225 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> so I'd love to have new information injected into those thoughts |
226 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> xarses: not necessary...Sage and I are already on the path |
227 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> https://wiki.ceph.com/Development/Foundation has your ideas right ? |
228 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> you could contribute to the wiki doc though |
229 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> foundation does not depend of redhat, ceph is an open source solution right? |
230 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> loicd: only the very highest level brush strokes...but yes |
231 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> mourgaya: the point of the foundation would be to hold the trademarks in trust for the community |
232 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> xarses: something that looks like a petition without the controversial tone would be nice |
233 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> an assertion |
234 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> without Red Hat's donation of those marks the foundation really can't happen |
235 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> loicd: xarses: I propose we just create an "interested parties" section on the foundation doc |
236 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> for those who are interested in seeing it happen |
237 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mourgaya: the dynamic of the project depends on redhat now. And a fork would be most difficult. The idea of a foundation is to make |
238 | 2 | Jessica Mack | such a fork unecessary, forever, because all interests are represented. |
239 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> a fork wouldn't have much chances. too much happening in the code at the moment. only if Sage and a few other key devs would create |
240 | 2 | Jessica Mack | that fork themselves, it would stand a chance |
241 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> see Maria... |
242 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> hehe |
243 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> scuttlemonkey: having a document where people can freely express their thoughts, even if not polished, would be useful |
244 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> loicd: so you're thinking a "talk" page in addition to the brainstorm doc? |
245 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> right |
246 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <fghaas> um, can I just inject one thought here since scuttlemonkey asked for it: is anyone under the impression that RHT fucked up KVM, |
247 | 2 | Jessica Mack | post-Qumranet acquisition? |
248 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> xarses: is this something like this you had in mind ? |
249 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> fghaas, not that i can tell |
250 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <xarses> loicd: something like that |
251 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> how can we have redhat position about a ceph foundation? |
252 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> fghaas: Inktank can't compare to Qumranet because they had a proprietary software base to begin with. Intkank is a Free Software |
253 | 2 | Jessica Mack | shop and this is a significant difference. |
254 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> mourgaya: I will be sharing that info as we start the discussions |
255 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <xdeller> fghaas: absolutely not, except some directions, like state replication, was abandoned |
256 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <fghaas> loicd, KVM was always free software. The *management products* around KVM were not. Ceph is free software, Calamari is not. I |
257 | 2 | Jessica Mack | maintain there's significantly less difference than you think. And yes, RHT would have us believe that RHEV-M is The best Thing Since Sliced Bread™ |
258 | 2 | Jessica Mack | for a few years, but then OpenStack set them straight |
259 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> fghaas: we can debate this historical thing later ;-) |
260 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Should we move to more technical topics or someone has more to say about the redhat acquisition ? |
261 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> its a bit early for outsider to have more insight to talk in-depth about it :) |
262 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> true ;-) |
263 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <fghaas> so I'm with janos_ and xdeller here; I think RHT has been a fine steward of KVM, and if they follow *that* precedent then the Ceph |
264 | 2 | Jessica Mack | user community will rather be very happy with them. But they certainly broke some glass with the Gluster deal |
265 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <fghaas> so they better learn the right lessons from their own history :) |
266 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> perhaps we can trace the RH thing a bit more closely than every 4 weeks? |
267 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> fghaas: did then ? |
268 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> did they ? |
269 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- loicd knows nothing about the Gluster deal |
270 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: how do you mean ? |
271 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <fghaas> loicd: oh yeah, there were quite a few Gluster, Inc. customers they pissed off by just not offering GlusterFS support on RHEL, and |
272 | 2 | Jessica Mack | instead forcing customers to go with RHS if they wanted GlusterFS support |
273 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> ah |
274 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> indeed |
275 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <kraken> http://i.imgur.com/bQcbpki.gif |
276 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dam |
277 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> ahah |
278 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> loicd: perhaps have a 30 minute "Ceph User Commitee Special" in 2 weeks only for that topic? |
279 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> argh!! |
280 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> not good? |
281 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: if you're go to organize this, I'm in ! |
282 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> loicd: ha, who wants to spend 8 hours a week for the Commitee? :D |
283 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> so it sounds like with the RH deal there are two camps with very different concerns - those who use the product as-is puublicly and |
284 | 2 | Jessica Mack | those with support contracts |
285 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Vacum: let's discuss this after the meeting. |
286 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> loicd: I'm happy to organize ad hoc meetings for this topic as I uncover answers WRT foundation |
287 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> the public crew shouldn't really see anything but general benefit |
288 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> imo |
289 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> janos_: actually I'm currently in the limbo between both - _because_ of the acquisition |
290 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> scuttlemonkey: ok ! |
291 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <fghaas> yeah janos_, jftr, I don't think anyone complains about RHT's stewardship of GlusterFS the project |
292 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> fghaas: so you're generally happy about this deal ? |
293 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- loicd remembers that we should keep some time for the CephFS topic, 20 minutes left ;-) |
294 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> ooh oho there's new stuff to say about cephFS? |
295 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dmsimard: you had a use case to discuss IIRC ? |
296 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> loicd: yeah, I can talk a bit about a use case I have for CephFS |
297 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- loicd listens |
298 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <fghaas> loicd: re your question, I'm all for people striking rich that I like and whose work I deeply respect :) |
299 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <janos_> fghaas, haha, yes i agree |
300 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> iWeb is a mirror for a lot of open source distributions, some of which are officially recognized mirrors by upstreams - |
301 | 2 | Jessica Mack | http://mirror.iweb.com/ |
302 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> fghaas: :-) |
303 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> Being a mirror means having to provide a lot of space, a lot of network throughput |
304 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- loicd clicks |
305 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dmsimard: lots as in how much ? |
306 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <iggy> aww man, click spam again! |
307 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- iggy kids |
308 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> iggy: :-D |
309 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- pvh_sa listens (<-- is a cephfs user, silly me, but I got my reasons) |
310 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> Right now we're hovering around 40TB of data |
311 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> all on CephFS ? |
312 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> No, not on CephFS. |
313 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> I wish it could be, though. |
314 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> I should not interupt and let you finish with the use case ;-) |
315 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> Right now the data resides on multiple JBODs daisy-chained with a head. |
316 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> It's hard to scale effectively, not as highly available as we wish it could be |
317 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <xarses> dmsimard: doesn't radosgw swift/S3 API make more sense for that? |
318 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <xarses> mabe a web server to make it look like a fs again |
319 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> is there such a thing ? |
320 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <xarses> there should be =) |
321 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> I don't know if it could be done, some mirrors are different than others - some push, some pull, etc. |
322 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> Anyway, I brainstormed about doing this with CephFS and it'd look like this: |
323 | 2 | Jessica Mack | http://dmsimard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/mirror_logical.jpg |
324 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> when are you planning to deploy this ? |
325 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> This provides the ability to easily scale a highly available storage backend, scale the amount of webservers |
326 | 2 | Jessica Mack | - probably in 1Gbps increments - as more network throughput is required |
327 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> Right now all the mirrors are hosted on this single web/storage beast |
328 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> Having the setup above would allow us to scale each mirror according to it's own needs, adding mirrors would be simple. |
329 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> I wonder if anyone has done this before. It looks like a natural / simple fit. |
330 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> loicd: I know that OVH fairly recently touted they used Ceph for their mirror infrastructure (this was after I brainstormed the above!). |
331 | 2 | Jessica Mack | I don't know if they use block or CephFS. |
332 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Would you like to create a CephFS use case page and add yours ? |
333 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mo-> imagine those "webservers" (shouldnt they be FTP/rsync servers?) were openvz containers, having its datastore on cephfs... perfect segway |
334 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> dmsimard: you will likely want to cache on the front-facing mirror servers nevertheless IMO |
335 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> I've not heard of OVH lately but they are rather secretive about what they do. |
336 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mo-: did you try this already ? |
337 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> loicd: https://twitter.com/olesovhcom/status/433982909729763328 |
338 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mo-> no, I was just saying. this doesnt seem very different from the openvz container usecase |
339 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> dmsimard: I would imagine you have high peaks on the same few files. ie every time a new version is published and all people DL the same |
340 | 2 | Jessica Mack | .iso? |
341 | 1 | Jessica Mack | -*- loicd should live in the 21st century |
342 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mo-: that makes a lot of sense |
343 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dmsimard: how much bandwidth is your mirror having ? peak time ? |
344 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> mo-: The frontend servers would be very identical indeed, with only the mirror pool subfolder changing |
345 | 2 | Jessica Mack | - we in fact planned to leverage Openstack (perhaps with Heat) to scale easily. |
346 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dmsimard: thanks for the link |
347 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mo-> if these front servers were openvz containers, they could be HA-managed as well, no need to manually mess with HA on application-level then |
348 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> loicd: Don't have the data on hand, the server on which the server resides has a 4Gbps LACP link, haven't heard of it being maxed. I |
349 | 2 | Jessica Mack | know it's more than 1Gbps though. |
350 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> ok. |
351 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mongo_> What type of files? |
352 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mongo_> what size? |
353 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> mo-: I'm not personally familiar with OpenVZ :( I would need to look into it maybe. |
354 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mongo_: I would assume mostly iso + tarbals + packages |
355 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> mongo_: Linux distribution mirrors, so binary data packages, iso, tarballs |
356 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> We're also a mirror for sourceforge so a lot of binary there. |
357 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <mo-> its like BSD jails. many systems running on one host with almost zero virtualisation overhead. much more efficient than hardware |
358 | 2 | Jessica Mack | virtualisation in fact |
359 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mongo_> I just use nginx, I have it try the local file, local peer and if not it grabs it from upstream and saves the file locally |
360 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mongo_> much easier to scale and far less complicated to maintain. |
361 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Last week I was at http://www.capitoul.org/ProgrammeReunion20140424 and people from R&D in universities were very attracted by CephFS. |
362 | 2 | Jessica Mack | Mostly for legacy applications. |
363 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> mongo_: Yes, of course some caching layer would be involved. The graph I linked earlier is super high-level |
364 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mongo_> you would be better off with radosgw as it has built in geo replication |
365 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> dmsimard: do you feel something is missing from CephFS that would make things easier to setup for this use case ? |
366 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mongo_> ceph-fs is not really ready for prime time right now. |
367 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mongo_: how would you mirror things without cephfs ? |
368 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> loicd: I was able to setup/puppetize and use CephFS fairly easily in my continuous integration infrastructure. What's stopping me |
369 | 2 | Jessica Mack | is the red light that it's not production ready. |
370 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> you would need to write software |
371 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> ok :-) |
372 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> I know what it's mostly the active-active MDS scenario and the dynamic subtree partioning that was most unstable last I heard |
373 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mo-> I would wager that deduplication for cephfs would be a great fit for such a mirror system |
374 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> mo-: +2 |
375 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> We have 2 minutes left. |
376 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> make that "deduplication for rados would be a great fit" :D |
377 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> mo-: Deduplication is great if you have the same data all over the place, this is not my case here though ? |
378 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> I'll announce the next meeting (early june) on the mailing list. |
379 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <mourgaya> dmsimard: dmsimard: +1 |
380 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> If you're lucky enough to go to Atlanta next week, don't miss the meetup ! http://www.meetup.com/Ceph-in-Atlanta/ :-) |
381 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <dmsimard> Lots of iWeb folks going to the summit, not me unfortunately :( |
382 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> or the design session! |
383 | 2 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> And if you're in Berlin (lucky too, it's a great time to be there) : http://www.meetup.com/Ceph-Berlin/events/179186672/ is an |
384 | 2 | Jessica Mack | opportunity to meet Ceph people. |
385 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> http://openstacksummitmay2014atlanta.sched.org/event/ddecd66323efb0c83baeb1bbc1d9556e#.U2PrHuZdW6w |
386 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> that is a mini-CDS for OpenStack-related devel work discussion |
387 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> scuttlemonkey: :-) |
388 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <Vacum> btw, when is the next online CDS planned? :) |
389 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <scuttlemonkey> Vacum: haven't set a date yet... I was waiting to see what the timetable looked like in a post-firefly release world |
390 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> We're running out of time but we can keep going on #ceph-devel :-) |
391 | 1 | Jessica Mack | <loicd> Thank you everyone ! |
392 | 1 | Jessica Mack | </pre> |